Hacker News Re-Imagined

Rust Moderation Team Resigns

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  • 3 days ago

  • @hasheddan
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  • • 812 comments

Rust Moderation Team Resigns


@MR4D 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Out of curiosity, to whom is the Moderation Team accountable?

Seems like they and the Core Team should be accountable to the same oversight board.

I don’t know the inner workings of the organization, so apologies if I’m asking a dumb question.

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@porker 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

This is a real shame. From the early days of Rust (pre-2018?) I built up this mental picture of it having a considerably better run and governed community, with people putting time into thinking about how a community should work rather than it being something that's ignored because "we're here to write code and managing a product is a waste of time".

I lost touch (the last video I watched which might be the one that give me the feels for it was https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9OFQm8Qf1I, I do recall Ashley Williams & her ideas were a big part of why the community looked so good from outside; contrasted with the "do-ocracy" one I'm in) so I don't know what happened - but it's sad it's become like other projects now.

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@wheelerof4te 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Well, what a wonderful community.

On the other hand, this is what happens when core developers of a previously beloved project get "contacted" by Big tech players.

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@iamed2 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

There are two statements here regarding things that have happened:

> the Core Team placing themselves unaccountable to anyone but themselves

> we have been unable to enforce the Rust Code of Conduct to the standards the community expects of us and to the standards we hold ourselves to

It's possible that there were CoC violations that they were not able to moderate, that the actions available to them were limited (e.g., they would have initiated a ban but they were not able to ban a core team member), that a core team member intervened to prevent effective moderation, or that the core team prevented the mod team from being able to access official core team channels in order to moderate.

Seems to be a wide variety of possibilities and leaving the nature of the situation ambiguous* will likely make it difficult for a new mod team. I hope the now-former mod team are open and direct with new or potential mod team members about the environment they're entering.

* I do think it's right for the mod team to not reveal the specifics in public; that would likely provoke targeted harassment and make the situation much worse

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@mjburgess 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Absent some form of democracy, what does it mean for a leadership to be "accountable"?

Power extends from whoever has the authority to hold others to account. So this just reads like a power-grab from the moderation team. What would it mean for them to have the power to hold the core team to account? That they could sack people from it?

The goals of the project are set by the core team; not by a moderation team enforcing some abitrary CoC. Suppose a member who contributes 90% of new features to the project is "sacked" for an otherwise trivial CoC violation. This subsumes the project into an ideological purity-testing game.

Accountability here is just that the wider community has visibility on the actions of the core team, and will be up-in-arms if they are seriously unethical.

This is, in my reading, deeply bad press for the moderation team. The innuendo and insistence on their own power above that of the people leading the project... this "is a bad look".

EDIT: the immediate number of downvotes on this comment is interesting. I'd be interested in hearing from a down-voter on what their objection is.

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@dom96 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

> The Rust Moderation Team (Andre, Andrew and Matthieu)

Is the Rust mod team really just 3 people?

I'm really surprised to see this coming from Rust. I've viewed Rust's governance as one of the best amongst open source projects. Coincidentally we have very recently put together a mod team in Nim[1] that is significantly larger than just 3, it would be really great to hear more details so we can learn from this.

1 - https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/8629

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@isitdopamine 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Since they don't say what happened, I can only speculate.

The usual CoC violation: probably someone in the Core Team made a statement (outside the Rust community and not speaking officially) that does not align with the progressive political thinking.

You say that the larger number of men in tech with respect to women might be due to biological reasons? CoC violation, fire the enemy of the people!

You say you voted for Trump? CoC violation, fire the enemy of the people!

You say only biological women are actual women? CoC violation, fire the enemy of the people!

When there was a huge push to adopt CoCs I warned everyone I knew about the clear potential for abuse by the leftist (who also incidentally happen to be the ones to back CoCs). In particular a CoC should cover only actions performed in a community, no-one should be banned to contributing to a project because of what they write on Twitter, for instance!

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@gumps4pres 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Rust's community is composed of the following types of people:

* SJWs like Bryan Cantrill

* Commies like Steve Klabnik

* Furries

* Straight up Pedos

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@Animats 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

After reading through all this, I have no idea what the real underlying issue is. Someone seems to be angry with someone over some incident, but we don't know what the incident was.

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@hintymad 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Curious, why did a project of programming language hire a multi-person moderation team in the first place? That's the OSS version of HR? Or is it equivalent to a team of diversity and inclusion?

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@bogwog 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me like any time there's a controversy surrounding code of conducts (and just bad behavior in general) with open source projects, it's always on Github. Conversations on Gitlab by comparison always feel a lot more serious and professional.

That could just be due to numbers, since Github has way more people. The low barrier of entry to Github probably also contributes, since it attracts younger/less mature people. The social media features might also cause people to treat it like reddit or twitter, where being an asshole for no reason is normal behavior.

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@r053bud 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

I feel like there is always drama or issues surrounding the governance of Rust. It has definitely made me wary to adopt it as a long-term language. Maybe I have recency bias or something.

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@unanswered 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Goodbye and good riddance. Rust is growing up, and it absolutely does not need a cadre of petulant preteens claiming moral authority over every user of the language (or at least every user who wants to discuss the language with others in public).

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@covidpositive 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Why are the vast majority of Rust devs furries?

Showcasing your sexual kinks wrt a project that has nothing to do with sex is pretty off-putting to begin with but the fact that most furries are also pedophiles makes it insane that any self-respecting company wants to be associated with Rust.

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@spedru 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

I can understand the moderation team not going object-level in the name of professionalism, especially given that [whoever this really means something to] probably already know exactly what's up. That doesn't make it any less strange or jarring to someone on the outside looking in. Can anyone provide context?

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@vbezhenar 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Moderators are nothing. Developers are everything. Moderators can resign all they want. The important thing is that developers do not resign. Those CoCs are getting out of hand. It was a terrible idea from the start.

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@bitwize 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Sounds like the core team wants to get shit done, and the kind of people in the Rust community who open bugs on the philosophers in the dining philosophers example not being gender- and ethnically diverse enough are assmad about it.

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@fastasucan 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Is this related to this, where of member of the core team is in some drama in the node community?

https://archive.md/f10KK

Also:

https://archive.md/xaa5v

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@q1w2 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Is there any tech consequence to this immature drama?

I'm confused as to whether I should care or not. If there are consequences on the tech, people need to spell that out.

Right now this all seems like some middle-school playground emotional drama. I'm too old to care about that.

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@Dowwie 2 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

This response merely preserves the status quo, which is the thing that Andrew and team have an issue with in the first place. This is not an appropriate circumstance where discretion better serves anyone except for the people who were apparently above moderation.

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@InTheArena 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

This seems suspiciously similar to the drama that hit node a while ago.

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@ww520 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Sounds like a failed political power grab.

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@randyrand 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Programming Language authors love to formalize everything, but did Rust really need all of these rules and moderators to begin with?

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@asoneth 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Is there any good way to craft a message like this?

If they outlined specific issues then it would invariably devolve into armchair quarterbacking of those issues rather than the the underlying question of what kinds of checks-and-balances should exist for the Core Team -- gossip, accusations, and political discussions are a lot more fun than debating governance structures.

On the other hand, if no specific issues are raised then people are frustrated by having only a partial understanding. Because it's a lot simpler to evaluate an argument if you already know whose side you're on.

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@budabudimir 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Does anybody actually care about the moderation team anyway? CoC is also just set of guidelines that people abide by anyway in most situations, but doesn't prevent anybody from being an asshole. When somebody is an asshole, random set of people can't really do anything about it.

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@lenkite 1 day

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Good. The Core Team can govern and mod themselves. This general mealy-mouthed complaint about "un-accountability" - with utterly no specifics given - can be crushed and dumped into the dustbin.

If you don't want to "publicize" it, then don't make a formal, public post on Reddit Rust - handle it internally.

If you want to publicize it, then have the courage to provide the specifics to the public.

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@ferdowsi 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

These organizational breakdowns in tech communities (recently Rust,.NET, Elm) make me much more appreciative of long-running, relatively healthy communities.

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@vegai_ 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

What was their responsibility?

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@rust-throwaway1 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

I'm inclined to believe the rust moderation team even though they haven't disclosed any specifics. The way the core team exercises absolute authority in spite of community complaints has always rubbed me the wrong way. They present a facade of caring while crushing dissent.

I do not recognize most of the core team these days, but Steve Klabnik and Ashley Williams stand out as likely culprits. I have personally submitted an email with the Rust moderation team to complain about Klabnik (and also mod-team member Andrew Gallant) and their abrasive behavior on reddit. Several months later I received a response stating they agreed that Klabnik went over the line and that they would warn him. Meanwhile Ashley "kill all men" Williams has an extremely lengthy reputation for her behavior in open source[1]. When it was announced she was joining the rust community team, there was a large push back from the community but the reddit/discourse mods censored everything[2][3] and the core team chose to let Williams join despite the complaints about her history of racism, sexism, and antagonism.

[1]: https://archive.fo/f10KK

[2]: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/7nx3cm/announcement_a... (https://archive.fo/ISXJF)

[3]: https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/announcement-ashley-willia... (https://archive.fo/9yW9I)

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@mperham 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

In case you are curious, here is the Core Team:

https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/core

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@thrower123 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Anywhere in any of this is there any indication of what specifically they are fussed up about this time?

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@ehutch79 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Sooooo. Should we not use rust then?

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@devwastaken 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

No reasons or substance given. This is how bad orgs continue to operate. Everyone is afraid of pointing fingers at the aggressor. Name and shame. Then If the rust org refuses to fix it, we know who to not involve in the fork.

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@papreclip 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

>"In this message, we have avoided airing specific grievances beyond unaccountability. We've chosen to maintain discretion and confidentiality. We recommend that the broader Rust community and the future Mod Team exercise extreme skepticism of any statements by the Core Team (or members thereof) claiming to illuminate the situation."

I guess these are the juicy details they are choosing to omit - https://archive.fo/f10KK

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@throwaway59553 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Does this moderation team even contributes to the code base to feel that the members of the core team have to adapt to follow some stupid code of conduct?

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@twa999 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Of course, it's not known what really went on internally, but something like this doesn't really come as a surprise.

This is what you can expect when you put people with a questionable history of adhering to CoCs or are activists rather than developers in critical leadership positions.

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@surrealize 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Some interesting context from one of the resigning mod team members: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/qzme1z/moderation_tea...

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@Kla_usLa22 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Politics are part of human behaviour. To some extend we need to accept politics.

However, I'm concerned that recently quite some politics seem to be going on with the Rust core team. First the nebolous "I refuse to let Amazon define Rust" tweet. And now this resignment accompanied by another nebolous statement .

Rust is still very fragile and only very scarcly used in business contexts. I'm using it for APIs, love it and want it to succeed. Politics and drama does not support its adoption.

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@dolni 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

I don't believe proper free software projects require significant moderation of behavior between individuals.

If someone says something that rises to the level of a crime, report it to your local authorities.

Otherwise, if a person is generally toxic enough, they will be worked around.

Note that expelling a person from a project for being a jerk in one or more instances may do more harm than good. What is the value of their technical contributions? Just how much of a jerk were they?

Unfortunately, some snowflakes like to believe that everyone contributes equally. That is simply not the case. And, in fact, some people contribute a _negative_ amount overall. Which is to say, the project is better off without their participation.

Linux has changed the world -- in a very substantial way and much for the better -- even though Linus flew off the handle at people for years. That doesn't mean he is completely beyond criticism, but it does indicate to me that we need to put a significant check in place against these "feelings committees." Their sensibilities are becoming ever more delicate.

You can't have a complex technical project that is successful without some minimum level of competency. For better or worse, competency often makes people a little rougher around the edges.

Choose your tradeoff carefully.

edit: Adding an addendum here because of a lot of people seem quite triggered by the use of the word toxic and frankly, I don't have time to reply to all of you.

I used the word toxic in this post precisely once, to say that people who are toxic enough will be worked around.

Toxicity is not a yes/no question. It's a matter of degree and context. So is technical contribution.

Everyone is capable of saying things they will regret later. Some people are capable of saying things that everyone else will regret, frequently.

With regards to "competency" and "rough around the edges" -- note I used the phrase "rough around the edges" and NOT toxic. Many of you seem to be making that substitution.

Have the lot of you never worked with someone who knows their shit, is opinionated, and isn't afraid to let you know it? They're often intimidating, even if they don't mean to be. Submitting a PR for review to them can be nervewracking even if they are entirely nice about it. Sometimes a fair critique will cut a little deeper because the code is your baby, and they didn't sugarcoat it enough for your liking. And, once in a while, they're willing to get in a heated debate because they feel strongly about something.

The very nature of being critical (which is required for quality code) is enough to provoke some unwanted emotions in other people. Even if those negative emotions aren't intended. And sometimes, getting into a heated argument about something is justified if it saves a lot of pain later.

Somehow, there is a lot of triggering going on here, and not a lot of acknowledgement of nuance.

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@Subsentient 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Good. If Rust's management falls apart, the language will become more decentralized, like it should be. I was always very, very nervous having a systems language totally controlled by only one organization. Hopefully this will result in a fork of rustc and some new interest in gccrs.

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@throwaway894345 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

> You'll never get everyone to settle on the same moral values so it's inevitable that you'll get someone who is unapologetic about some value they hold.

I'm less familiar with Rust community moderation, but as an example of what not to do, I would offer up the Go maintainers' strategy of advertising unrelated, partisan, ideological content on their web pages and then shutting down any kind of critical conversation about it. To be clear (if only so people know what they're downvoting!), I'm an avid Go enthusiast--the language is great and the maintainers are generally good at designing a language; however, I sharply disagree with their approach to managing the community.

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@threatofrain 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

IMO it makes sense that the Rust moderation team should also be the Rust core team, and that losing the confidence of your peers is the scope and magnitude of wrong that should trigger action. This will allow some modicum of abuse per the culture of any core team, but it will also align power with incentive and avoid power paradoxes like "who watches the watchmen".

This is similar to how some legislative / deliberative bodies administer themselves.

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@ufo 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

I'm not very familiar with these Rust institutions. What are the moderation team and core teams? What places are the moderation team tasked with moderating, and what powers do they have?

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@magicroot75 16 hours

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

As someone who has no idea what Rust is, but dabble in HN, I'm now intrigued.

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@znpy 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Some months ago somebody else was complaining about the fact that most of the rust core team was being hired by big corps (mostly Amazon iirc).

In my opinion these people resigning will have the effect of just making core team's life (read: Amazon's and other big corps' life) easier in doing whatever they want.

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@lovecg 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Why does a language need a “moderation team”? C++ seems to do fine without one.

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@fivelessminutes 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

'Core team' as a concept naturally leads to elitism.

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@blindmute 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

I'm fine with this. Let the people work. Moderators rage quitting because they don't have ultimate power over everyone in the organization is probably indicative of an organization better off without them. If the problem was actually egregious, the people in charge of the core team would have allowed the enforcement. A resignation strongly implies that no one in power was on their side.

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@lloydatkinson 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

I think it's ridiculous a programming language needs a whole team to make sure people are being nice anyway.

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@nikivi 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

I wonder if it's related to this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28513130

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@capableweb 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Obviously there is a story behind this ("the Core Team placing themselves unaccountable to anyone but themselves"), but it's not entirely evident from the PR itself what actions led down to this happening. I guess somewhere a Core Team member broke the Code of Conduct but the deed went unpunished? I was expecting some references or links to where this actually happened, but couldn't find anything. Anyone know what happened for this action to be taken by the moderation team?

Not part of the general Rust community, just an outsider, so maybe I'm missing something obvious.

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@xondono 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

To no one’s surprise, rather than be a tool for reducing it CoCs are proving to be a very effective way to create drama.

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@fijiaarone 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

We don't contribute but we want control -- if we can't have it, we will libel the project.

Almost every open source project is being overtaken by social justice warrior leeches. Even Linus Torvalds was kicked out of Linux. I'm surprised that the Rust community pushed back.

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@da39a3ee 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

What does the Rust Moderation Team moderate? Discord channels? GitHub issues?

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@archer423 2 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Who would want to see Rust move to a DAO on blockchain? I can help make that happen. ray@oblivion.io

Since so many blockchain projects are using Rust and the community is struggling perhaps moving it to a DAO is the way to reboot things and create a more democratic and transparent experience for all.

LMK.

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@axiosgunnar 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

tldr?

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@zozbot234 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

TL;DR: the Rust development community is so moderate and peaceful on its own that the Rust Moderation Team was left without a job!

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@atsjie 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Seems like a new mod team has already been found? https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/moderation

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@emerged 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Let me guess, they want to govern Rust via whatever DAO-of-the-day unproven crypto tech instead.

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@lifeisgood99 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Sorry what's the context?

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@opheliate 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Two new moderators have already been added to replace those who left on a temporary basis: [0], [1]

0: https://github.com/rust-lang/team/commit/7185102aa6261d0181f...

1: https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/moderation

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@da39a3ee 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

So, basically, it seems that the most common speculation is the following:

While one might have suspected that the Rust moderation team were people with "progressive/SJW" leanings themselves, in fact what happened is that someone on the core team with radical "progressive/SJW" leanings violated the relevant codes of conduct sufficiently that when the core team denied the moderation team their right to take action against the infringer, the moderation team were so pissed off that they resigned.

In light of that it's tempting to wonder whether it's a bit of a sign of the times -- after the last few years of increasingly absurd and ascendant progressive positioning, the adults in the world finally not being able to take the nonsense from progressives any longer and putting their feet down.

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@j56no 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

here’s the core team https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/core - you can easily spot one person lacking ethics

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@o_wa_32 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Tough times for Rust. The hype resp. honeymoon is over. Adoption is kind of plateauing - at least from my perspective.

I've invested in Rust and don't regret it so far. I love the language and the tooling.

However, I'm not sure if I'd choose Rust again.

Those politics are really disturbing, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28515306.

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@Zababa 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Things are happening behind closed doors in Rust's leadership. First there was a post from Steve Klabnik, a member from the Core team, about how Amazon is taking too much power in the Rust leadership (discussed here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28513130). Then that post, that seems against the Core team. I would appreciate some transparency and clarity about what's happening. Lots of people are currently wonder about whether or not to invest in Rust, me included. Stuff like that is a clear negative signal for me.

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@tin1g1erh 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

This is what happens when half the "community" is made up of commies and pedophiles that dress up as dogs to fuck underage 15 years old in the ass.

Rust is an interesting language but fuck the "community".

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@wilx 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

So, if I understand this correctly, people who make things happened don't allow people who just police bullshit CoC to take over? Good for them.

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@rStar 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

RUST MODERATION TEAM: (“we believe ourselves and our feelings to be more important than rust as a whole so we hope to watch it crash and burn”)… RUST RIVAL EXECUTIVES, previously :EXEC#1: (“well you know it looks like we have the C replacement for the next 50 years, it’s free, it’s secure, it scales, and it’s been developed out in the open. this is definitely cutting into our business johnson, what can we do about this?”)…EXEC#2:JOHNSON: “whip up the wokesters and take that motherfucker down?”)… EXEC#1: “sounds good johnson, make it happen”!

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@the_duke 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

I have used Rust for years, but I never bothered with looking into the governance structure.

How are team members selected? Who has authority to kick someone off a team? How are team leads selected? Who can remove team leads?

Is it the core team? If so, who picks the core team?

I can't find anything online, except this very bare-bones WIP stub. [1]

This seems to be a glaring and surprising oversight.

Especially at this point, with Rust becoming more and more popular, the foundation in place for almost a year, and corporate interest flooding into the project, I would have expected proper procedures to already be in place for quite some time.

There certainly seem to be other cracks in the system. See for example "I refuse to let Amazon define Rust" by core team member Steve Klabnik, extensively discussed here on HN. [2]

[1] https://github.com/rust-lang/governance/blob/master/common/m...

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28513130

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@xibalba 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

This statement is inscrutably generic. Are there examples of behavior which went unaccounted? Or, what prompted this?

Also, is it common for projects to have mod teams? This is new to me.

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@jonjonanonnon 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

tech geeks too corny, dry snitching keyboard cops yuck

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@nurettin 2 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

ripgrep guy wants more attention.

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@Mikeb85 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

I mean, is it any surprise? When all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail. I'm going to go out on a limb and say they probably recruited a bunch of SJWs who went around looking to be offended, then were told where to go (I mean, they're non-technical members of a technical project) and now they're acting offended...

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@opheliate 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Further information might be gleaned from the associated Reddit thread, where one of the mod team who resigned in this post has offered to answer questions surrounding the departure, although not relating to any specific incidents: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/qzme1z/moderation_tea...

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@bobthechef 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

I don't see an explanation anywhere. Why are they resigning? The reason given (a lack of accountability?) doesn't really tell me anything.

If you're going to resign, it helps to clearly explain why with sufficient detail. Maybe they did this elsewhere?

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@na85 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Can someone explain why the development of a computer programming language needs "mod teams" and other stuff?

I don't use Rust; does Rust aspire to also be a social network or something?

It seems to me, from my outsider's perspective, that Rust has a lot of bureaucracy for bureaucracy's sake. The "teams" directory [0] has two pages worth of files, which I assume are sub-team membership lists? Good grief.

[0] https://github.com/rust-lang/team/tree/master/teams

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@zetadoop 2 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

let them go

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@marcus_cemes 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

I'm glad that they're trying to make their voices heard, but I hope this doesn't have any long lasting effects on the Rust community/ecosystem as a whole. We all (mostly) want to see Rust succeed, but we're struggling on our way there.

There are a lot of companies on the edge about investing into Rust in my opinion, there are a lot of reasons for, but it also generally just feels so unstable and easy to rock.

Being at the centre of controversies, such as the one with actix-web, gives it a bad reputation even outside Rust circles.

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@praveenperera 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

I love Rust. Its the language I use most these days.

But seems like there is a new drama every week with the core team and community.

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@secondcoming 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Why does a programming language need a 'Mod Team'? This is what happens when redditors leave the house.

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@jebronie 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Is this a dirty trick by the amazon folks to harm the core team?

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@jgrant27 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Comrade Klabnik has been as toxic for the Rust community as he was for the Ruby on Rails community. This could actually turn out to be a positive for the future of the language and community. I'm not a fan of Amazon but if they took over as it's stewards it would be a lot better.

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@formerly_proven 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

<inaccurate>

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@elzbardico 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

What exactly was the role of this team? how exactly it came into being? I suspect that we are starting to see the reaction against the CoC entryists in open source projects.

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@krisrm 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

This makes me sad.

As someone who's used Rust but isn't fully familiar with the community, what would the expected roles of these moderators have been? Is it just forum moderation or are there other components?

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@IceWreck 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Is this about Amazon employing most of the core team and having too much influence on the language ?

I remember someone else high up in the Rust project leaving due to those reasons last month.

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@TeeJayD 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Great news

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@scandox 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

> In this message, we have avoided airing specific grievances beyond unaccountability. We've chosen to maintain discretion and confidentiality. We recommend that the broader Rust community and the future Mod Team exercise extreme skepticism of any statements by the Core Team (or members thereof) claiming to illuminate the situation.

Isn't that a kind of scorched earth statement? I read it as "we will be discreet and don't believe anything anybody tells you in the future...instead assume all your worst fears are true".

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@say_it_as_it_is 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

People in open source don't seem to understand that major open source communities such as those for Rust are work environments, and in work environments you should act professionally. Don't discuss religion or politics. Don't insult. Respect those who you disagree with.

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@m0zg 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

They'd do well providing some root causes for this blowout. "Core team won't take CoC" is a bit of a cop-out. If the conduct is legal, IMO people who contribute most of the code should have more weight when deciding moderation related issues (and people who contribute none should have no say at all).

Show me the transgressions that would require CoC to be enforced and then I'd be more sympathetic. As presented, this seems like political bullshit, and their efforts would be better spent overhauling Rust's unergonomic error handling.

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@yannoninator 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Could we have someone from the Rust Core Team here for a statement for more context rather than us guessing the context?

We still don't know what is going on.

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@lvass 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Not that this specifically will cause any consequence for the language, but it's terrible how entirely possible some similar drama can affect it. This is a complex, unspecified language with a single decent implementation.

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@mahkoh 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

Selective enforcement of CoCs? Hard to believe. The Rust Code Team has my full confidence.

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@heywherelogingo 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

"we're resigning, but not saying why; just believe us anyway". Really?

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@queuebert 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

I think Rust is a great programming language, but to be honest all this drama discourages me from using it as much.

I worry about whether using the language will become a political statement. I worry whether people who can't get along are making the best decisions for the language. And I worry whether a total team meltdown will cause it to become defunct or forked at some point.

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@DarkCrusader2 3 days

Replying to @hasheddan 🎙

From the rust subreddit, which apparently is an "unofficial space" does not want people to discuss any specifics either. Why is this discourse happening in public? They want to use public opinion to bring reforms to the Rust governance but not divulge any details?

Does Rust really have a community if noone but a few select member have access to the information regarding why things are changing and the community members can't even discuss the forbidden topics in "unofficial spaces" either. How do I decide if I an getting involved with a community or just an elite club.

Quoting from the stickied comment from r/rust moderator.

> In the interest of not hastily jumping to conclusions, we will be removing speculation that alleges that this is due to any particular individual(s). The moderation team appears to have gone to great lengths to avoid naming names, ostensibly in the service of focusing a spotlight on the core team as a whole rather than any of its members. If they had wanted to name names, they could have. I understand that it is difficult to discuss a topic without firm details, but please refrain from engaging in speculation. I have confirmation that the core team will be making a statement about this at some point, which will hopefully shed more light on the situation.

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